American Presidential Elections

[Rattuskid 0]

Oh, but it does, because it means if someone gets this far in a race and turns out not to be born on soviergn US territory, they are lying, and compromising the US Constitution. It means they are an egomaniac, placing themselves before the country and the Constitution. This goes for any lie by the way that should and would compromise the image of either and all candidates in the Presidential race.

 

Well, I don't know about you, but my earliest memory is like from two or three years old. I could have been born in the Congo and lied to. If that were the case, I'd pass a polygraph, so I don't really see how inaccuracy (even though that's likely not the case) translates into a massive lie worthy of shaking the whole office. Even if that all were true, could you just impeach him soon after?

 

Also, we're told in smear campaigns that all candidates raise taxes and spend money on their pet projects while spitting on veterans anyway, I don't think you can ruin some integrity with the shitbog our politics are. At least not that. Remember, we've had presidents lie to us in office, about reasons for war, and on more than one occasion about serious afflictions of their health.

 

Another hypothetical, say FDR was born in Canada, would that undo all the stuff he did?

 

McCain has gone through untold numbers of elections before, if he ever squealed, surely it would have been drug up already. Since when did the paradigm shift of muckraking to muck-inventing happen, anyway?

[IconOfEvi 0]

Another hypothetical, say FDR was born in Canada, would that undo all the stuff he did?

Yes, and yes. The office would have been compromised, and the Constitution. Furthermore, not everyone has such a rosy view of FDR as the savior from the Depression. I don't know what my opinion on him is, but it would be incorrect to assume he's entered the pantheon of what I term 'sacred presidents'.

 

But if he was, he never would have been able to BECOME president, as even the slightest rumor then would have triggered an investigation from every corner and end of his life. There would have been no way someone like McCain or Obama could have became President in the 1930s.

 

What your problem (in my opinion anyways) is is that you're saying that the means justify the end. That even if laws have to be broken, that the Constitution has to be broken, so long as get whatever form of 'social justice' Obama is promising, it is worth it, for the means (destroying the Constitution) justify whatever goals or reasons you support Obama for.

 

Well, I don't know about you, but my earliest memory is like from two or three years old. I could have been born in the Congo and lied to. If that were the case, I'd pass a polygraph, so I don't really see how inaccuracy (even though that's likely not the case) translates into a massive lie worthy of shaking the whole office. Even if that all were true, could you just impeach him soon after?

I'm not saying a polygraph test anyways, as those can be faked. Even if your memories don't know, your birth certificate will tell otherwise. The best example of this is me. I have no memory from my early life in the United Kingdom, which was at most under a year anyways, as far as I know. Yet, the fact I have a piece of paper from there and not from here (the United States), that means I can never, ever, be President.

 

McCain has gone through untold numbers of elections before, if he ever squealed, surely it would have been drug up already.

You say surely. Not only does nearly every POW who served in Vietnam, or Vietnam vet who knows his history hate him, or mostly everyone who KNEW him even, but also pretty much everyone (besides Col. Bud Day) who was at the Hanoi Hilton says he's one of the biggest liars ever. It doesn't help that the case against McCain is further corroborated by Soviet and Vietnamese intelligence, now open to us somewhat after the Cold War.

 

The reason you have to rely on word of mouth and foreign facts instead of his POW Record is that he had it classified, dammit. How many times do I have to say this? Do you ever hear of what is in classified information? No, because it's been sunk for one reason or another.

 

Also, the modern media is a hindrance to the goal of espousing information. Every major outlet is owned by one corporation or another. Thats why you get 'celebrity X does Y to celebrity/people/place Z' instead of actual news - they don't tread toes.

 

 

 

Now, for funnies. From YTMND...John McCain is the original Maverick!

Edited October 27, 2008 by IconOfEvi

[Rattuskid 0]

But if he was, he never would have been able to BECOME president, as even the slightest rumor then would have triggered an investigation from every corner and end of his life. There would have been no way someone like McCain or Obama could have became President in the 1930s.

 

Chester A. Arthur was rumored to be a Canadian, and he got in. McCain wouldn't have been president in the 30s just because nobody cared about Arizona then apart from the folks who tested bombers in the area. Obama would have been lynched before he could run, so that's a moot point.

 

Besides, rumors aren't fact. And the burden of proof is on the accuser in this case as otherwise it is assumed he's legit.

 

What your problem (in my opinion anyways) is is that you're saying that the means justify the end. That even if laws have to be broken, that the Constitution has to be broken, so long as get whatever form of 'social justice' Obama is promising, it is worth it, for the means (destroying the Constitution) justify whatever goals or reasons you support Obama for.

 

Quite the contrary, I'm pleased with that provision because as I said it keeps Austrians and Margret Thatcher from ever possibly holding that office, I just don't believe Obama is lying. I'm playing devil's advocate and assuming he was for your sake. Even then, I don't see him as a savor, just the least undesirable man for the job. I disagree with his positions on some gay rights issues, and on his support of the bailout in retrospect... But all and all he's really avoided fucking up half as bad as Kerry did this time four years ago, and all he had to do was 'not be Bush'.

 

By the way, I just LOVE being told 'what my problem is' and that doesn't make you sound like a condescending asshat AT ALL.

 

I'm not saying a polygraph test anyways, as those can be faked. Even if your memories don't know, your birth certificate will tell otherwise. The best example of this is me. I have no memory from my early life in the United Kingdom, which was at most under a year anyways, as far as I know. Yet, the fact I have a piece of paper from there and not from here (the United States), that means I can never, ever, be President.

 

My very American birth certificate had to be sent back for twice, because of a misspelling of my name and then the wrong place of birth, so if I were to run would such things make it look like I too had 'forged' it since the one I own is not the original?

 

You say surely. Not only does nearly every POW who served in Vietnam, or Vietnam vet who knows his history hate him

 

I'm glad to know you've met a majority of Vietnam vets to found that opinion. I just hope that before you pounded them for their opinion on McCain you shook their hand and thanked them.

 

I only hope four years from now you can actually support someone for reasons other than what you found out from spread emails about the other guy. At least you're not polluting the polls and taking the lowest common denominator of propaganda from both sides to spoil you to both candidates.

 

However, every time you bitch over the president, whomever he is, over the next four years, we're going to kindly remind you you waved your democratic right, which is a bit like a nice way of telling you to sit down.

 

You know what the Greeks called people who didn't vote? "Idiots"

[IconOfEvi 0]

make you sound like a condescending asshat AT ALL.

Thats why I said in my opinion :(. I didn't accuse you outright.

 

My very American birth certificate had to be sent back for twice, because of a misspelling of my name and then the wrong place of birth, so if I were to run would such things make it look like I too had 'forged' it since the one I own is not the original?

However, your initial mistypings ARE documented, thus if people ever need to know that you sent it back, it can be verified at the Register Of Deeds. The actual certificate is your voluntary release.

 

I'm aware of bureaucratic fuck ups. Hell, I was a woman for 18 years according to the Social Security Admin and whoever got my gender from them. It explains a lot of puzzling letters and contests over the years. :huh:

 

You know what the Greeks called people who didn't vote? "Idiots"

You know what the ATHENIANS called Athenian free men who we're landowners who didn't vote? Idiots.

 

I'm pretty sure, cracking open my copy of The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides, Brasidas, or even Thucydides himself would have a rather dryer comment on Athenian democracy. Why, even Pericles started to have misgivings about their (the Athenian) empiredemocracy eventually.

 

Hell, cracking open nearly ANY classic Greek book would have disdain for Athenian democracy.

 

However, every time you bitch over the president, whomever he is, over the next four years, we're going to kindly remind you you waved your democratic right, which is a bit like a nice way of telling you to sit down.

Speaking of Greeks, they came up with a wonderful story that is apt to my thoughts on this election. Except in this case, one is not worse than the other. They're both equally, and abominably bad.

Edited October 27, 2008 by IconOfEvi

[Korona 0]

You aren't meaning to imply that you agree with these Greeks are you Icon? :huh:

[Count von Phoib 0]

Yes. McCain is so good in eating 6 people every day, while Obama obviously is king in swallowing the ocean 3 times a day.

 

Geez Korona, how stupid can you be if you don't notice that

[hawk10314 0]

Cant get more clearer then this..

 

For those Americans who are here, and I do not care what the views are from our European friends, please listen to this clip and understand if Obama gets elected he will destroy the very essence of of what America is. He describes the constitution as a Charter of NEGATIVE Liberties, talks about how it blabs about how it doesn't bind us to the state and WANTS THE SUPREME COURT (NOT ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE!), to redistribute the wealth. My God, is this really the man we are going to elect? Someone who has no respect for the founding fathers and what their sacrifices were? The sacrifices of generations past, and by getting elected his first official lie to the American people will be when he takes the oath of office to uphold the constitution to the best of his ability, so help him god. He wants to reverse it! I swear if he had his way the first line would be "We The Government" Now you don't have to hear me talk about him being a communist and a socialist he says it clear as day right there for you.

 

This is scary shit.. If the democrats get their magic 60 in the senate and they have a majority in the house you can throw out the checks and balances, we will be at the will of the government. God help us...

 

[Count von Phoib 0]

This is scary shit.. If the democrats Republicans get their magic 60 in the senate and they have a majority in the house you can throw out the checks and balances, we will be at the will of the government. God help us...

I believe that was the case in 2001-2006?

[hawk10314 0]

This is scary shit.. If the democrats Republicans get their magic 60 in the senate and they have a majority in the house you can throw out the checks and balances, we will be at the will of the government. God help us...

I believe that was the case in 2001-2006?

 

No, the magic 60 means that if a party has a 60 senate majority it is immune from a filibuster from the minority party. during 2001 - 2007 the parties we basically balanced pretty evenly + or - 5 on each party. A similar time that I see coming is the arise of a new Jimmy carter era times ten. During that time the democrats had a 61 majority in the 95th congress.

 

[Korona 0]

The Republicans deserve to loose the right to filibuster, after the shit Bush pulled they deserve to be run out of office.

 

Out of interest for anyone who wants to answer (maybe this should be a separate topic): Who would be in your pantheon of super presidents?

[hawk10314 0]

That is the most insane idea I ever heard, do you know what happens when a government has no balance? When they can pass what ever laws they want with no opposition, I am not saying I love the republicans but Ill gladly take George Bush 3 over Karl Marx 2. Its not about the damn democrats or the republicans its about the people that they serve, WE the people don't deserve to be oppressed by a government with no limits. Don't you have any ability to better yourself and not have the government do it for you? Why do you guys think that the government should care for you other then your protection and build your roads. Its the local government and state governments that are the ones people need to pay attention to, not the federal government.

[Count von Phoib 0]

It's a government chosen by the people. If the previous incumbent political power would have done a better job, it would not have lost that power.

 

Besides, I consider Filibusters ridiculous anyways.

[Rattuskid 0]

They're both equally, and abominably bad.

 

So someone broke your fingers then rendering you incapable of voting? Hell if you live in a state like PA, Ron Paul will still be on the ballot, and you can always write in.

 

I hope you're not avoiding the polls altogether, because well, there sure as hell are going to be other federal, state and local elections it would be really disgraceful to forgo just because you can't make a decision on the big ticket.

 

No, the magic 60 means that if a party has a 60 senate majority it is immune from a filibuster from the minority party. during 2001 - 2007 the parties we basically balanced pretty evenly + or - 5 on each party. A similar time that I see coming is the arise of a new Jimmy carter era times ten. During that time the democrats had a 61 majority in the 95th congress.

 

I think the complete control of all three branches of government is the scarier prospect, and it looks like the Supreme Court will have a conservative appointment slant for ages to come, so there's little chance of that. Also what you're missing is midterm elections tend to sway away from the president's party (save for the 2002 fluke with Bush), just because the base mobilized to vote the big guy in tends to wither to nothing while the opposition remains strong. Filibustering is a joke anyway, since it's mainly just a bogging tactic and those it sways just are for lack of a better term 'quitters'. Besides, you think after that bloodbath of a primary the democrats are going to be uniform in their voting patterns? Especially in the house?

 

Even if it's as doomsdayish as you say, it will only be two years. Two years of neoCarter are better than another four of this neocon Bushit.

 

On that note though; Why do you people still try to vilify what is quite possibly our most humanitarian president? Effective the man was not, but brooding and scheming and Stalinesque? Give me a fucking break.

[IconOfEvi 0]

On that note though; Why do you people still try to vilify what is quite possibly our most humanitarian president? Effective the man was not, but brooding and scheming and Stalinesque? Give me a fucking break.

Another topic for another time, but suffice to say, do gooders usually end up doing much worse to the world than they intend. Stalinesque though? That is wrong of his demeanor. Brooding and scheming (for what his goals we're), that isn't very far from the truth. Brooding isn't a negative action.

 

I hope you're not avoiding the polls altogether, because well, there sure as hell are going to be other federal, state and local elections it would be really disgraceful to forgo just because you can't make a decision on the big ticket.

Oh, no no no, I never said I'm staying away from the polls entirely, just not voting for President ticket.

 

and it looks like the Supreme Court will have a conservative appointment slant

Or you could have two retirees/deaths coming in the next eight years, one of them being from the conservative side, thus having two new liberal appointees with the audacity of Ginsburg. Yech, heaven forbid!

 

balanced pretty evenly + or - 5 on each party

And one of those Senators who ALWAYS broke ranks on the Republican side? Why yes, its JOHN MCCAIN. Our dear Original Maverick.

 

A similar time that I see coming is the arise of a new Jimmy carter era times ten

Time to dust off that ol' Misery Index eh?

 

hawk10314's words

Hawk, stop arguing with Korona as if he's going to influence the election in any way.

 

Anyways, hawk, yeah that tape just basically reiterates what we knew about Obama - he is a closet communist. A closet Marxist. Go figure.

 

Go figure they're going into super damage control over this as well, including outright lying and saying Obama critics are washing what Obama said.

 

The fact that he says the Constitution is flawed because it didn't provide enough social 'equality', is indicative of his madness. It's not good enough for him.

 

In my opinion, Obama was very clear what he said. Whats surprising is that this is exactly what Korona was saying the US should do. So look for a defense shortly.

 

You aren't meaning to imply that you agree with these Greeks are you Icon? :huh:

First, when we talk of Greeks of antiquity, it would be much more appropriate to term them as their individual city-state (e.g. Athens, Sparta, Arcadia, etc), since it would be grossly unfair to characterize them as all the same.

 

Now - what I'm saying is that the Spartans we're wise, if a little misguided in their actions at times. Heaven forbid that America was run like Athenian democracy.

 

 

 

EDIT - some lulz to be had from redistributing income.

Edited October 28, 2008 by IconOfEvi

[Korona 0]

The Spartans were ant-like warrior-Communists, what exactly do you admire about their society? It seems like one of the most extreme antitheses of "American values" (personal freedom, family values, small government etc.) that I can think of.

[Le_Poisson 0]

I'm still confused as to why people think all of a sudden elected officials will have no minds of their own? Like everyone will just bow down and take it in the ass if some "higher up" (for lack of a better term) in their party sponsors a bill or something?

 

The fact is, even if there is a Democratic majority in Congress, they are still 100 people in the senate and 435 (I believe? not fact checking at this point), in the house. And they all still have their own opinions. It's insane to think that they're going to act like robots and have no differing opinions.

 

Furthermore, a filibuster does NOTHING. All it does is waste time. It just makes people sit around, losing the ability to filibuster is meaningless. Some may argue that it provides time to further debate the issue, fine, it may well do that. But it also doesn't make or break the senate.

[IconOfEvi 0]

I don't know how much longer you're

going to pretend Obama was always a US a citizen Korona.

 

Imagine that, even Michelle outed him.

 

And imagine that, WND reporter arrested in Kenya. Obama details to not be released until after election.

 

Why am I not surprised.

 

(yeah it is 435 Congressmen plus 100 Senators)

[flyby 0]

Ah, they'll shoot him anyway before he can finish his 4 years....

The hatred and racism runs so deep with some ppl that they'll keep trying...

 

You, my friend, are living in a bananarepublic with one of the highest rates of presidents killed or shot at...

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/10/27/ob...plot/index.html

 

[Logan Hartke 0]

Ah, they'll shoot him anyway before he can finish his 4 years....

The hatred and racism runs so deep with some ppl that they'll keep trying...

...

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/10/27/ob...plot/index.html

Flyby, I have to respectfully say that you don't have a clue what you're talking about here at all. I've lived all over the US, both north and south of the Mason-Dixon. I lived in IL, the home state of Senator Obama. I have close family in Jackson, TN, the city where the two men in your article were arrested and have been there often. It is a very racially charged area, worse than anywhere I've been in GA or FL. I have an uncle there (by marriage) who owns more guns than many banana republics (including a working Thompson), is racist up and down (not just against African-Americans, but against all non-whites), is a member of the local NRA, and nobody in our family would be shocked if he were a member of the KKK. If we're 1/2 as bad as you say we are, then he's probably got a pit the size of Rhode Island where he's dumping all the bodies. The man has enough firepower to assault Ft Knox and doesn't much care for black people, but yet he's not killed anyone. I wonder why that is?

 

Fact is, he's really one extreme and he has a number of African-Americans and Mexican-Americans that work or have worked for him at his company. Not only does he not want to kill them, he hires them.

 

I knew of a couple of murders in the small town where I grew up and the city where I live now has murders every other day. None that I'm personally familiar with have been hate crimes. It seems like 90% of those that are on the news down here are African-Americans killing African-Americans.

 

In 2006 alone, there were only 3(!!!) hate crime-related murders in the entire US! And that doesn't say if they were all racially-motivated or whether it was white on black.

 

"We take this very, very seriously but we see no evidence these guys have the ability or the wherewithal to pull off what they say they wanted to do," one law enforcement source said.

 

In the post-9-11 era, US security organizations can't afford not to take everything seriously, but these guys had a snowball's chance of actually threatening the life of Obama.

 

You, my friend, are living in a bananarepublic with one of the highest rates of presidents killed or shot at...

Bull. Not too up on your South American history, are you my friend?

 

Read this, for example.

 

The rule, in general, is that non-U.S. political assassinations are products of several individuals scheming and plotting murder, while U.S. political assassinations are the invention of mentally deranged individuals.

 

Intelligent Essays: Assassination Attempts on Presidents

 

If Obama gets elected and is killed as an conspiratorial act to eliminate a US President, it will be only the second time in the history of the United States that it has happened (the first since the American Civil War).

 

US Presidents are mainly the target of either conspiracies with little chance of success (such as the incident you cited) or mentally deranged individuals (who, frighteningly, have had much higher success rates). The targeting by the mentally unstable probably has more to do with media coverage than anything else.

 

If you read the rest of the essay, the paragraph beginning with "Presidents marked for death after 1970 include Nixon, Ford, Carter, Regan, George H.W. Bush, Clinton, and the current president, George W. Bush- every president." I think rather clearly shows that whoever gets elected will be targeted at some point, to be certain. The likelihood of success is not in favor of the attacker, however, and anymore it's more a peril of the job than being black.

 

If anything, because a racially-charged assassination attempt is now on the radar, the Secret Service will be that much more careful and the FBI will be looking in that direction that much more. I think that it seriously lowers the chances of Obama ever being assassinated by a racially-motivated group or individual.

 

Logan Hartke

[Korona 0]

Regarding the Hawaii governor sealing Obama's birth certificate.

Well that proves that there is a birth certificate there for them to seal!

 

Regarding the unconfirmed Michelle Obama tapes, it looks like a bit of a convenient story, who knows if they are real, an impersonator or even totally made up. Even that stupid non-firefox friendly site says "hay guyz this is unconfirmed" (not that this stops them from treating it as gold plated truth). I am willing to be proven wrong but you need to do a lot better than unproven allegations. It all looks highly tenuous to me, I can't find a single mainstream news source that is reporting on this. Random right-wing blogs really don't cut the impartiality mustard.

 

If you take this with a pinch of salt then it seems very tenuous.

[Count von Phoib 0]

Besides, by becoming the American president, you defacto get the biggest possible target painted on you, regardless of your color or political stance.

 

Chances are, in 2 years they are burning puppets of Obama all over the Middle East, just because he's the president of the USA.

[Korona 0]

Hawk, stop arguing with Korona as if he's going to influence the election in any way.

Actually, thanks to my donations to ACORN I do get to vote...

 

 

five times!

 

Go Democracy!!!

[IconOfEvi 0]

Or more people than are even in Mississippi...

[Windows V 0]

"There is no reason in the world why some of these counties should have more registered voters than they have living, breathing people," Mississippi Senate Elections Committee Chairman Terry Burton said.

 

Obviously because they all died of obesity.

[Korona 0]

If they aren't keeping the list up to date with the death register then it's not surprising that the number of registered voters exceeds the total number of alive people.

 

I guess they could just strike all the blacks off the list like they used to.