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American Presidential Elections

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It's okay Icon, don't worry, the socialism stuff is just scare tactics. Even the Democrats are still way to the right of mainstream US public opinion.

 

Statistically speaking, the everyman does better under a Democratic government, rather than a Republican one, so they are at least the lesser of the two evils and thus presumably a 60+ senate would be a good thing for that Joe Average they all love these days.

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Even the Democrats are still way to the right of mainstream US public opinion.

You're British, so I'll forgive your ignorance on that remark. :)

 

Statistically speaking

Mind showing me said statistics? And not from a source like DailyKos or HuffyPo. Something like the BBC, or other reputable organizations.

Edited by IconOfEvi

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Hmm, I remember seeing a nice big list of all the things that mattered under democrats and republicans, with republicans being in the red for most of the time, I can't find the exact same page, but these for now:

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2199810/ -> a very biased site though

 

http://blueorred.atspace.com/ -> this one seems a bit better

 

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the Democrats are still way to the right of mainstream US public opinion.

 

...

 

the everyman does better under a Democratic government, rather than a Republican one

 

 

1. America is very socially-conservative outside of large cities. The democrats are winning in spite of that, because everything has a dollar value... and it's why the democrats have been moving slowly towards the center for about 15 years now. On the bright side, people are starting to see what idiots all these fundamentalists who've been elected are, so maybe we'll see the emergence of a healthy equilibrium sometime soon. Maybe.

 

2. The everyman gets screwed just about equally no matter who is in charge, one way or another.

Edited by Monkey

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2. The everyman gets screwed just about equally no matter who is in charge, one way or another.

See, thas why I love you Monkey.

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Nope polling can demonstrate the Democrats (even Obama) are to the right of mainstream US public opinion. For a paradigm case, look at healthcare, probably the issue where Obama is most to the 'left'. The majority of people want a national healthcare system, something like the Australians have (rather than the cheapo version we have here in the UK), paid for by taxation. Obama isn't going that far, and instead is going for a fudge where he makes it much more affordable for the poor and imposes reforms on the way insurers operate. You can be left of the Republicans and still be right of the mainstream.

 

Regarding the Democrats statistically doing better for Joe Average than the Republicans, there are tons of hits if you google it. Here is something to get you started:

http://lanekenworthy.net/2008/02/17/the-le...-income-growth/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...9-2005Apr1.html

 

Does that stop the Republicans and Democrats from representing two factions of basically the same group (big business)? No of course not, they are both to the right of the mainstream and can be seen to consistently gun for special interests.

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The majority of people want a national healthcare system, something like the Australians have (rather than the cheapo version we have here in the UK), paid for by taxation.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. Post up some poll results if this answer is so ubiquitous because every time this idea is mentioned the only thing I have ever heard anyone do is bitch about how they don't want their money to go and pay for the healthcare of "deadbeats". Admittedly I live in the southeast so this area is replete with well-heeled republican twits, who are naturally concerned first and foremost with their wallets, but it is those people that but Bush in office two times in a row.

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A google search for

"majority americans favour universal healthcare"

gave me the following insightful articles:

 

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/h...31020_poll.html

(A recent one)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/...in2528357.shtml

(from 2007 and has some nice bar charts that show the 2-1 support is actually nothing new)

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/poll-show...2007-06-28.html

Shows that even a majority of Republicans believe in healthcare for all as a basic right.

 

The bullshit that Americans hate the idea of social welfare is a myth propagated by the media. Most Americans do want more social equality.

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You're right, I just live here. What do I know?

 

But really, that's exactly what I was saying... When it comes to social or "ethics" issues, the general public is NOT to the left the of most liberal democrats. It's just not true.

 

However, the fact that people (surprise surprise) like being able to afford healthcare doesn't change the fact that they don't really have the stomach for abortion or dislike the idea of gay marriage - but everything has a price. Healthcare, the economy, the war, whatever. People just want SOMETHING to fucking happen after eight years of Chimpy McFlightusit.

 

And although I will concede that the democrats do do more for the poor than the GOP, it doesn't mean they're doing a whole lot. ;)

Edited by Monkey

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Oh yeah, it's totally a lesser of two evils argument, not a good vs bad argument.

 

I'm just talking real policy issues, not the moral grandstanding on issues like abortion. I think these topics just pull wool over our eyes and distract us from the fact that both parties just represent different arms of big business. Stuff like gay marriage and abortion. Who the hell cares? The government shouldn't be prescribing on morals, as far as I am aware for most Americans that is the end of the story.

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Oh yeah, it's totally a lesser of two evils argument, not a good vs bad argument.

 

I'm just talking real policy issues, not the moral grandstanding on issues like abortion. I think these topics just pull wool over our eyes and distract us from the fact that both parties just represent different arms of big business. Stuff like gay marriage and abortion. Who the hell cares? The government shouldn't be prescribing on morals, as far as I am aware for most Americans that is the end of the story.

 

In an ideal world the gov't would stay the hell out and deal with real issues instead of legislating morality, yes - but unfortunately what we have is a two-party where one party's platform basically consists of doing just that. In my opinion, it's very relevant when talking about american politics - even when it shouldn't - because, well, that's all one party is willing to talk about. What's the alternative? Sad but true - but like I said, I think it's changing this time around, even if it's taking damn near a total economic collapse.

 

Edited by Monkey

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Taking this page - http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/US/h...31020_poll.html

 

My dear Korona, what you did was tell part of the truth.

prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system.

Do you see anything about that? I do.

prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system.

Hell, I prefer so called universal health insurance over employer based health insurance, it's that much of a thievery. It's government health insurance on a smaller scale.

 

Oh, and

That support, however, is conditional: It falls to fewer than four in 10 if it means a limited choice of doctors, or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments.

Oh? Hark, whats that? Waiting lists and/or limited choices of doctors in every socialized medicine scheme around the world? Why, yes it is!

 

Among insured Americans, 82 percent rate their health coverage positively. Among insured people who've experienced a serious or chronic illness or injury in their family in the last year, an enormous 91 percent are satisfied with their care, and 86 percent are satisfied with their coverage.

Aside from the face most Americans are insured, I guess I'm so unhappy because my mom, surprise surprise, works for a government institution.

 

Most Americans are dissatisfied with the costs of the system overall, and apprehensive about their future expenses — but satisfied with their own current costs.

This is like public schools in America. According to most parents, Public schools quite suck - except the one they send their kids to!

 

You know Korona, your polls basically helped my argument ;). I suppose thats what looking at headlines only can get you.

I'm still waiting for those other stats indicating Americans are all closet socialists. Despite what some people think, healthcare is not the only thing in the world.

 

 

 

Admittedly I live in the southeast

Than move to San Francisco or New York, you.

 

And although I will concede that the democrats do do more for the poor than the GOP, it doesn't mean they're doing a whole lot.

Thats like arguing the difference between a pit and a hole ;).

 

 

 

 

Oh, and Obama is suspending his campaign for a bit. He says he's off to pick up his forged birth certificate visit his sick grandmother.

 

And this isn't really anything new, I've been following his birth certificatecertificate of live birth fiasco for a while, and it really is a boondoggle. Every single site that has supposedly verified him has 1>a conflict of interest (FactCheck.org is interestingly the worst) and 2>posts a different certificate, essentially meaning its forged.

 

Goddamn, this is like my last hope, that he's proven to not actually born in the US, which he isn't. He's shamed his whole way through. It is the last hope for me at least, to get him at the finish line. It's too much to hope that McCain's POW records will be declassified.

 

EDIT - Reverse Deja Vu

Edited by IconOfEvi

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Dude the quality of care argument is laughable, even Britain with the NHS costing 1/3rd of the US system achieves better quality of care. Performance in well funded state systems like in Australia or Switzerland is so much better than in the US system. Waiting times or restrictions on GP access are NOT inherent to a state system any more than they would be to a private system. The only difference is the greater equality and the absence of a huge layer of bureaucracy which dramatically improves efficiency. Spin it how you like but the bulk of people want fundamental change of the system, and you can sure as hell bet that they don't want to make it less fair. It's time to start copying systems that actually work, and the majority of Americans can see that.

 

As I said, the difference in living conditions under Democrat/Republican is clear and statistically provable. They are clearly the lesser of the two evils. Pull your head out and face facts. They aren't the same, there is a choice on Nov 4th.

 

 

 

 

 

It's sad that you would buy into those youtube conspiracy theory videos with their bullshit, half-truths and distortions. The claim about factcheck.org for example. Just because the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and factcheck.org were both founded using a grant from the Annenberg foundation doesn't mean they are related any more than that. Look at the Annenberg foundation itself! It was set up by a Republican whose widow is a McCain supporter and contributes to his campaign. Trying to suggest that factcheck.org is an Obama mouthpiece that would help him forge documents, when they routinely rip him and his ads apart is ridiculous. They ARE non-partisan. Get over it.

 

For the record here is his birth certificate from the three sites in question:

http://cdn.factcheck.org/imagefiles/Ask%20...Certificate.jpg

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_..._disclosed.html

http://www.fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

 

He HAS released his records and THEY ARE ALL THE SAME

 

Their whole attack is based on wilful distortion of the facts based on some ridiculous technicalities of US immigration law. His American citizenship is clear through is maternal side. Stop clutching at conspiracy theories, they are all bullshit and distort the facts.

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He says he's off to pick up his forged birth certificate visit his sick grandmother.

 

And this isn't really anything new, I've been following his birth certificatecertificate of live birth fiasco for a while, and it really is a boondoggle. Every single site that has supposedly verified him has 1>a conflict of interest (FactCheck.org is interestingly the worst) and 2>posts a different certificate, essentially meaning its forged.

 

So a site called Factcheck.org is a hugely slanted and in on a massive pro-Obama conspiracy, but one called 'ObamaCrimes.com' is non-biased and delivering truth?

 

You're just upset none of the candidates are going to legalize your favorite stash of whatever you're smoking, huh?

 

Also, the greatest irony is that McCain was not born in any of the 50 states...

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

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So is it a conspiracy then when the case is in federal court? So its a conspiracy even when the plaintiff is a hardcore democrat who is an attorney general? I suppose you think he got bribed or something.

 

Basically what you want is what Obama supporters do to people - say shut up and face the music.

 

The judge hasn't thrown the case out.

 

Also, Rattus, we know McCain was born in Panama. Thats a fact. ON A MILITARY BASE. Those, in essence, are sovereign US territory. Not that I want McCain, but I thought we went through that crap in 2000?

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Ooop looks like the nutjob got his stupid case thrown out of court

 

Regarding whether or not he IS a nutjob, well obviously no Democrats are pissed at Obama for stealing Hillary's change at the top spot. Hooo noooo. A particularly zealous supporter who is also prone to conspiracy theories would have no reason to attack Obama AT ALL.

 

 

What's next? Zeitgeist? Loose Change? Obama did 9-11 with Bill Ayers? Please, grow a brain.

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This goes for both the candidates, and everyone of them in general, but why is it that the most powerful job in the world doesn't require a background check? Obama couldn't be his own bodyguard, and I have some doubt McCain could either.

 

Like I said earlier - You will regret it. And you'll be sorry. But by then, it'll be too late.

 

EDIT - Good article by Neal Boortz

Edited by IconOfEvi

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I guess I have to ask, could you provide a bullet list or something of what policies McCain proposes versus what Obama does, Icon? Aside from health care, which I frankly think is the least of our worries right now.

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In what sense :blink:? Do you want to me to compare how they are similar or how they are dissimilar?

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This goes for both the candidates, and everyone of them in general, but why is it that the most powerful job in the world doesn't require a background check?

 

Because the Manchurian Candidate was fiction and although the constitutional drafters included a checklist of qualifications that ramp up from congressman to senator to president, it was more just formalities than anything? Not that I'm glad this provision hasn't kept the idiot Ahhhhhnuld from the race...

 

Deep down though, it doesn't matter if you lived the first few weeks of you life in say, a Panamanian Base or Indonesia, if you were still raised here. If either candidate was THAT shaky on their credentials in this way, it would have been exploited in an age when a blowjob gets you impeached. Surely you realize there is a difference between time spent overseas and being something other than American. Bio here lived a lot overseas, and he's probably one of the most patriotic (without being a bushtard) Americans I know. You surely get sneers, because you're not the whitest guy around and I'd be willing to bet your last name ain't Smith. Does that make you less American? Hmmm?

 

Little ADDtangents like this sway people, no denying that, but if you vote for that reason you're not much more intelligently using your ballot than the black guy who votes for Obama because he's black. There are major fucking issues facing this nation, plaes of birth sure as hell ain't one of them.

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plaes of birth sure as hell ain't one of them.

Oh, but it does, because it means if someone gets this far in a race and turns out not to be born on soviergn US territory, they are lying, and compromising the US Constitution. It means they are an egomaniac, placing themselves before the country and the Constitution. This goes for any lie by the way that should and would compromise the image of either and all candidates in the Presidential race.

 

As you well know, the Manchurain Candidate has become a euphemism. Thats what I mean. I'm not actually referring to the actual book/movie.

 

As for McCain's creds - what we know about his POW and Vietnam screwing history is being whitewashed by "I'M TESTED" and "I KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE". Also, the fact his POW records are sealed means we only have the word of others POWs to go along with to judge about who the NVA called "The Songbird".

Edited by IconOfEvi

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Mistyped my question Icon, I meant to ask, what policy differences make you choose McCain over Obama, aside from health care?

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