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American Presidential Elections

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It's that 4th year again, and the United States of America gets ready to elect a new president by November.

 

Obama vs McCain.

Democrat versus Republican.

 

Discuss!

 

Some rules though:

  1. Only reply with answers relevant to the American elections, or in a meaningfull reply to a previous stated opinion.
  2. No name calling. It's Hillary, not Hitlary. McCain may be old, but he isn't an old .
  3. No other topics. We have this one. Is enough.
  4. Be respectful towards each other. You may not agree with IconOfEvi, but that doesn't make him an idiot.

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From my previous topic. I would like someone explain to me in a real answer how Obama would pay for all these government run programs that hes proposing.

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From my previous topic. I would like someone explain to me in a real answer how Obama would pay for all these government run programs that hes proposing.

The same way every government does it: taxes.

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From my previous topic. I would like someone explain to me in a real answer how Obama would pay for all these government run programs that hes proposing.

The same way every government does it: taxes.

 

And you like being taxed? People have less money, people spend less money, business do poor because people aren't buying anything. They cant afford to pay all the workers, they get laid off. Now there are more people looking for jobs and collecting unemployment. But with all the government programs you are guaranteed health care and a welfare check. But we need more taxes to pay for the people. And the cycle starts again. Until we are all poor because the government keeps taking and taking and taking. People are more giving and helpful to other people when they have the choice where to spend their money not when its being forced from them to pay for everyone. America isn't about giving fish. Its about learning how to fish and then going out and fishing. No fishing pole? The Library is open to everyone.

 

I live in NJ, one of the highest taxed states in the country and one of the most costly to live in the country. It cost $1000 to rent an apartment, a crappy one at best. You need to be a millionaire to own anything. They aren't building individual homes anymore here they are building community complexes, condos and more apartments. This is what taxing gets us. Newark NJ is the 10th poorest in the country and they haven't had a conservative mayor in 100 years... that's where throwing them fish got them. Poverty, loss of the individual home, high taxes, big government. Sounds like communism to me.

 

 

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Hawk, chill. He's not against you.He's just highlighting what you said - taxes is how its gonna be done.

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Hawk, chill. He's not against you.He's just highlighting what you said - taxes is how its gonna be done.

 

Im not fighting with anyone. Im just saying the effects of taxes and what its like living under a high taxed lifestyle.

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Hawk, chill. He's not against you.He's just highlighting what you said - taxes is how its gonna be done.

 

Im not fighting with anyone. Im just saying the effects of taxes and what its like living under a high taxed lifestyle.

 

You think we don't know what it's like to live in a high taxed lifestyle? My last job payed £150 per week, less taxes I took home £103.50 per week.

£46.5 per week!!

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You basically have 2 possibilities to finance healthcare :

You let each pay individually according his needs or you make every one pay, proportionally to their income to provide a global care.

 

I can understand your panic as you've never known any other system then your current "pay for what you want" system.

 

At first glance - "on paper" as they say - the American system looks more performant as you only pay for what you need. But that's only theory.

The system is actually less performant, because it is sucked dry by a concept called PROFIT.

Where ever you start threating healthcare as a commercial product, people will get threated not according their needs, but according their wallet. Net result is that in America the amount of people not being able to pay for even basic healthcare is growing at an alarming rate.

 

Healthcare in a modern society is NOT about giving the best healthcare in the world, but about giving EVERYONE the best possible healthcare.

The healthcare in the USA has derailed due to the need for more and more profit. It abuses on the need to survive with medication to make extra profit.

That's why the current USA health budget is among the highest in the world, but is still unable to provide global healthcare.

 

We have a tax specifically for what we call "social security". It includes healthcare, but also unemployment saftynets.

The disadvantage of a "socialized" healthcare is that there are some rentability issues: There is an overconsumption tendency and a number of ppl are parasiting on the system.

 

However, a big advantage is that you distribute the global cost over a maximum amount of ppl, keeping the cost per person pretty low.

The losses due to parasites is more then offset by the lack for needing to be profitable. Global healthcare is simply "at cost price", without the need for an extra profit margin.

 

And that's why almost All European countries do far better then the USA : the ability to provide healthcare for EVERYONE.

I think that a commercial driven healthcare, like the American, is a contradiction in itself, because you can not take care of everyone in a profitable manner.

 

 

As for the Ideas on "communism", I see the McCartyism is still raging in the States.

Confusing socialism with communism is really not knowing what you're talking about...

The paranoia towards anything that has the word "socialized" in it, still haunts the poor American heads and souls.

I'm by no means a socialist, but at least I can admit there are some merrits in such a system.

 

And if global healthcare needs more taxes, then be it so. But let them be proportional: almost free for the poor, and expensive for the rich. That's the basic idea behine redistribution of wealth. It doesn't prevent you from getting rich, but it does prevent ppl from falling into dire poverty...

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As for the Ideas on "communism", I see the McCartyism is still raging in the States.

Confusing socialism with communism is really not knowing what you're talking about...

The paranoia towards anything that has the word "socialized" in it, still haunts the poor American heads and souls.

I'm by no means a socialist, but at least I can admit there are some merrits in such a system.

 

It's amazing sometimes how much the Americans don't get the differences between socialism, communism and fascism.

 

But this is funny and surprisingly accurate :D

 

DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You keep one and give one to your neighbor.

 

SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.

 

REPUBLICANISM: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So what?

 

COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with milk.

 

FASCISM: You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk. You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.

 

CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

 

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, then pours the milk down the drain.

 

'COMMON' DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being successful. You vote people into government who tax your cows to the point that you sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The people you voted for then take the tax money and buy a cow and give it to your neighbor. They use the rest to support your neighbor who now has one cow.

 

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when the cow drops dead.

 

A FRENCH CORPORATION: You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows.

 

A JAPANESE CORPORATION: You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create clever cow cartoon images called Cowkimon and market them World-Wide.

 

A GERMAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

 

A BRITISH CORPORATION: You have two cows. They are mad. The government has them both shot and burned. You buy two sheep and have similar problems.

 

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows, but you don't know where they are. You break for lunch.

 

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You count them and learn you have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 12 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

 

A SWISS CORPORATION: You have 5000 cows, none of which belong to you. You charge others for storing them.

 

A BRAZILIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You enter into a partnership with an American corporation. Soon you have 1000 cows and the American corporation declares bankruptcy.

 

AN INDIAN CORPORATION: You have two cows. You worship both of them.

 

A CHINESE CORPORATION: You have two cows. You have 300 people milking them. You claim full employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the newsman who reported on them.

 

AN ISRAELI CORPORATION: There are these two Jewish cows, right? They open a milk factory, an ice cream store, and then sell the movie rights. They send their calves to Harvard to become doctors. So, who needs people?

 

AN ARKANSAS CORPORATION: You have two cows. That one on the left is kinda cute.

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As for the Ideas on "communism", I see the McCartyism is still raging in the States.

Confusing socialism with communism is really not knowing what you're talking about...

The paranoia towards anything that has the word "socialized" in it, still haunts the poor American heads and souls.

I'm by no means a socialist, but at least I can admit there are some merrits in such a system.

 

It's amazing sometimes how much the Americans don't get the differences between socialism, communism and fascism.

 

But this is funny and surprisingly accurate :D

 

DEMOCRACY: You have two cows. You keep one and give one to your neighbor.

 

SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.

 

REPUBLICANISM: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So what?

 

COMMUNISM: You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with milk.

 

FASCISM: You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk. You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.

 

CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

 

So with your cow example, because health care is basically run by the American people (owning the cows) at this point having it go universal and run by the government and then having them give us or some times sell us the health care (milks) it just proves its a communist system.

Edited by hawk10314

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So with your cow example, because health care is basically run by the American people (owning the cows) at this point having it go universal and run by the government and then having them give us or some times sell us the health care (milks) it just proves its a communist system.

 

Wrong again.

 

Having it go universal shifts it from Republicanism to Socialism.

 

You see, they take your cow (tax money) and give it to your neighbor (healthcare)

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So with your cow example, because health care is basically run by the American people (owning the cows) at this point having it go universal and run by the government and then having them give us or some times sell us the health care (milks) it just proves its a communist system.

 

Wrong again.

 

Having it go universal shifts it from Republicanism to Socialism.

 

You see, they take your cow (tax money) and give it to your neighbor (healthcare)

 

the people own the cows (the insurance companies) they sell the milk (health care) the government takes away our cows and force sells us the milk (taxes)

communism!

 

Republicanism isn't even a form of government, it's a party who think they know what they stand for but they really have no idea what they are. same thing with the democrats.

 

the way you solve the health care system in the US is make it easier for more health care companies to start. More companies drives up competition and the more competitions you have the lower the prices will go. If eds health care was $4 and freds was $3.50 eds health care would try to match freds and lower the price to $3. They would either do that or throw in an extra insentive to make people want to buy eds at $4.

Another thing you have to do is make sure that doctors and specialist accept all health care forms, so they can't turn you away and make you go hunting for another doctor that can. Not to mention doctors need to pay huge amounts for malpractice insurance because we can sue them for millions of dollars, shooting us in the foot, thats another reason why its high.

If you really want to talk about socialism take a look at our social security and look how good that's going. If that worked so well why would we want another social program?

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the government takes away our cows and force sells us the milk (taxes)

communism!.

NO!! That's FASCISM!

 

Republicanism isn't even a form of government, it's a party who think they know what they stand for but they really have no idea what they are. same thing with the democrats.

 

You still don't get it do you?

 

Republicanism is a state of mind. It's "I have what I have. I wont share it unless I explicitly benefit". It's a close link to the Capitalists who currently run your healthcare system. You have your two cows. You will spend them on healthcare if you need to. Your neighbor has no cows and suffers a coronary. Tough luck, nobody's got his interest at heart.

 

On the other hand, you have two cows. The government takes one (note; one, not both. Taking both would make it communism). If either you or your neighbor has a coronary, there's nothing to worry about since all those cows the government taxed from everybody will pay for your treatment. That is Socialism.

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Or you get the NHS, where they take your cow and give you it's shit 3 months later when you've already gone and bought the expensive organic manure.

Edited by Goose

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If McCain wins the election and invades Iran, does the USA get to yell "Monopoly!" and put up hotels across Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan?

 

At the moment I'm kind of going for Mccain at the moment, just because...Obama doesn't look like a seasoned polititian. And I think that will pay a big part in the elections. Sadly, I think many will vote for him because he is black, and people will vote against him for the same reason.

 

He looks alittle green. But then again, I'm not to happy with what Mccain's party has done to the world under the Bush administration, so..... :/

I hope for a huge shift in the American foriegn policy. Aim inwards, not outwards!

Edited by Feuersturm

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From my previous topic. I would like someone explain to me in a real answer how Obama would pay for all these government run programs that hes proposing.

 

By using the money we flush into Iraq?

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You still don't get it do you?

 

Republicanism is a state of mind. It's "I have what I have. I wont share it unless I explicitly benefit". It's a close link to the Capitalists who currently run your healthcare system. You have your two cows. You will spend them on healthcare if you need to. Your neighbor has no cows and suffers a coronary. Tough luck, nobody's got his interest at heart.

 

On the other hand, you have two cows. The government takes one (note; one, not both. Taking both would make it communism). If either you or your neighbor has a coronary, there's nothing to worry about since all those cows the government taxed from everybody will pay for your treatment. That is Socialism.

 

Republican is a party, that try(keyword)to stay with conservative views which favors capitalism. And maybe if people actually had a sense of health awareness they wouldn't need so much health care to begin with. Examples. I'm not going to care about your health if you

smoke

drink

eat Mcdonalds

aren't even a legal citizen who might get hurt working illegally in the country and need to go to a hospital to get treated for free

do something restarted like pay your friend to hit you with a car. (its on youtube) and other similar acts.

sit on your ass all day and collect welfare.

 

With 300+ million people and America being the most obese nation in the world not to mention the millions of illegal citizens. There's plenty of people who don't even care for their own good health on a daily basis. Why should I care about you if you don't even care about yourself.

 

People are more willing to help each other if they are in control of their money not the government. The people are better off when they run the country, not the government. A government should be there to give you roads and protection. Our government makes things worse and voting to have them have more control on things would be a disaster. You want your health being controlled by whoever happens to run the government?

 

Like I said, the Library is open to everyone go there, read, learn a skill and apply yourself to life and you wont need things given to you. You can provide a service for people and imo that's caring about someone other then yourself. I rather help the people directly, if I know of someone who is barely making ends meet working 2 jobs has a kid etc, Ill help them out. That's capitalism. I don't need the government to take my money and give it to the wrong person. And Obama's tax plan is to take water out on the other side of the bucket. I guess if you don't buy things from business, use gas, work for a business or run a business, you have nothing to worry about. And I'm sure that America is the land of opportunity not the land of free fish. For those who understand that, our health care is far better then any other health care. You know whats best for you, not the government.

 

 

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By using the money we flush into Iraq?

 

Actually because we are capitalist, we can afford to go liberate a country and still grow our economy. second quarter for 2008 our GDP rose 3.3%

People still pay $8 for a hot dog at a baseball game go out to eat at a restaurant make batman a box office record and still we can wage a war on two fronts.

If you think Iraq was about oil I'm not saying that you do but getting it out of the way anyway, they made an oil deal with the Chinese not the USA. and to ship oil from 2/3 around the world I think oil would be a little higher then $3.50

And no WMDs? 500 tons of yellow cake shipped out of Iraq.

Edited by hawk10314

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No one is debating they didn't have WMDs hawk. He gassed people. That's simple enough. Or that China is the one who got the oil deal, I was going to make a topic on that but decided not too.

 

But speaking of that, talking with soldiers, they hate how its business as usual in America. Michael Yon phrases it succinctly:

 

“We can win. But we can still lose. […] There are those who fought and those who didn’t. Our soldier’s often said, ‘The military is at war. America is at the mall.’ […] American combat troops don’t want pity. They’re ready to fight to the end; they just don’t want it to be for naught. They have been fighting for two nations, one of which didn’t seem to notice. The Iraqis noticed.”

 

Considering I've heard this from friends and guys who've been there and back, I'd say its accurate. We're not in a wartime economy, a war mindset. The war is in the back minds of people. The capitalist, the consumerist mindset is precisely the problem here.

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No one is debating they didn't have WMDs hawk. He gassed people. That's simple enough. Or that China is the one who got the oil deal, I was going to make a topic on that but decided not too.

 

But speaking of that, talking with soldiers, they hate how its business as usual in America. Michael Yon phrases it succinctly:

 

“We can win. But we can still lose. […] There are those who fought and those who didn’t. Our soldier’s often said, ‘The military is at war. America is at the mall.’ […] American combat troops don’t want pity. They’re ready to fight to the end; they just don’t want it to be for naught. They have been fighting for two nations, one of which didn’t seem to notice. The Iraqis noticed.”

 

Considering I've heard this from friends and guys who've been there and back, I'd say its accurate. We're not in a wartime economy, a war mindset. The war is in the back minds of people. The capitalist, the consumerist mindset is precisely the problem here.

 

I agree with you 100% I'm just saying that the war in Iraq has had little effect over the economy replying to a previous statement. I have a few friends in the military and my cousin is going into the navy hopefully to become a navy seal. He told me he know what he was signing up for and I trust his judgment. People need to understand that we went to war for the a people, a nation to be free from oppression. The Olympics meant nothing to Iraq during Saddam when he would tortured the athletes that didn't win. The fact that they can go around driving in custom cars with a smile on there face, knowing they wont get shot by their government. The fact that people risk their lives to go out and vote and actually have a choice instead of Saddam or Saddam. That's why we fight that's what the war is for. When our own war in America was over I doubt there was wide spread peace, I'm sure British loyalist did the same thing back then as loyalist are doing in Iraq. American ideals mean nothing to me if we are selfish to keep them to ourselves. That's your fishing pole in a desert.

 

As to business as usual. I'm just putting some talking points out here. Bush isn't to blame for everything. I agree with his foreign policy but on a lot of issues I don't. I can't blame him for gas prices, he did his job of removing the executive ban on offshore drilling. Its up to the congress and they went on vacation. The party of Barak Obama is the same party of the latest congress who's done nothing and in the middle of a gas crises decided to go on vacation and bash bush while they sit with a 9% approval ratting. That's business as usual. I really don't like the republicans, either. I think they are not the same party of Ronald Reagen, The say lower taxes and less spending but they spend a fortune! that's business as usual. McCain doesn't even know what he is! He says hes for lower taxes but then votes against tax cuts. This is business as usual. Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and barak Obama. They all say "I'm the first woman to do this, the first black man to do this, the first Italian speaker" WHO CARES you weren't elected based on these criteria and should have no barring on how well your doing your job, but they throw that in there. This is business as usual. If i could find a pile of dog shit that could do a good job making the right decisions I'd vote for it. To give more control to a government that has done nothing good for us except waste our money increase our taxes and talk about solving the oil crisis for 30 years with NO RESULTS its a path to failure. I wish I could say that Barak Obama and John McCain can solve our problems but when it comes down to the wire you are on your own. And for the best results its best to have as little government as possible intertwined with your life. Unfortunately this is not their fault, after all "We the people" elected them and this is what we got...

 

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You want your health being controlled by whoever happens to run the government?

I'd much rather my heathcare be controlled by people who aren't profit driven.

 

You can provide a service for people and imo that's caring about someone other then yourself. I rather help the people directly, if I know of someone who is barely making ends meet working 2 jobs has a kid etc, Ill help them out. That's capitalism.

 

No, that's not capitalism. How the hell can that possibly be capitalism?! That's democratic socialism. Please read up on these!!

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Ok, since cows obviously hasn't explained it to some people, lets try again. Please study closely and maybe you might just learn something.

 

Capitalism:

 

Capitalist adj 1 Based on or supporting capitalism. 2 Person who owns a business.

 

Capitalise vb (-ize if you're American) or -ising, or -ised. 1 to take advantage of: capitalise on. 2 to write or print words in capital letters. 3 to convert debt or earnings into capital stock: capitalisation.

 

Capitalism n an economic system based on the private ownership of industry or enterprise.

 

 

Communism:

 

communism n the belief that private ownership should be abolished and all work and property should be shared by the community. Communist n, adj

 

Communism n 1 a political movement based upon the writings of Karl Marx that advocates communism. 2 the political and social system established in countries with a ruling communist party.

 

Socialism:

 

Socialism n a political and economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state.

 

Fascism (fash-iz-um) [n] 1 authoritarian and nationalistic political movement. 2 authoritarian ideology or movement like this. Fascist n, adj

 

Democracy n, pl -cies a system of government or organization in which citizens or members choose leaders or make other important decisions by voting.

 

So, in the cow examples, capitalism is where you make the most gain with minimal expense (sell one cow, buy a bull), it's sole motivation is profit (or greed). You have two cows. Your local hospital will charge you one cow for a lifesaving operation. Decline and you die. Pay them one cow and you live, they profit one cow for the service provided. You could also consider it an acceptable gain for the expense.

 

Democracy is where leaders or decisions are made by vote. You decide to give your neighbor one of your cows.

 

Communism is where private ownership is abolished. Your two cows are your neighbors cows too. A communist government would control this by storing the cows and sharing out the milk.

 

Socialism is where you still have private ownership, but also donate to the welfare of others. You have two cows. You neighbor needs milk, so your government sets up a social service to provide your neighbor with milk. In order to carry out this service, your government taxes you one cow. Can you see yet how a universal healthcare system would fall into this category?

 

You can combine Democracy with Socialism. You choose to give a cow as welfare to your neighbor who's struggling to make ends meet.

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