Il-2's In Game...suck :(

[Le_Poisson 0]

Hey all -

 

Just was wondering everyone's opinions on the IL-2. It seems to me that even when they are coming out in force, they still are not very effective. I've seen 8 IL-2s barely damage anything, 8 P-47's (or whatever the max is) completely destroy the enemy.

 

Why is there such a large imbalance in the air power? Why can't the IL-2's get a rocket upgrade, they had them in the war. Or at the very least a bump up in the penetration system, as it seems that it's impossible to effectively differentiate top armor from side armor (and indeed, it is impossible in this engine, unless I'm very misinformed).

 

Most Tigers that were destroyed on the Eastern front were because of IL-2's. They can barely dent Tigers or Churchills, or other heavier tanks. IL-2's should be an effective answer to heavy armor for the Soviets, right now they're helpful against light armor, and kinda meh against medium armor.

 

My solution: Bump up their penetration to medium or heavy, and either keep everything the same or give them a price increase and possibly a lower rate of fire.

 

Maybe I'm just using them poorly :(

 

-LePoisson

[Neo 0]

From 1941 to the end of the war the IL-2 used a VYa- 23mm cannon. They tried to upgrade the cannons but their attempt failed. The NS-37mm was a nightmare for the pilot:

 

"From an overall point of view, the IL-2 3M had poor balance; this indefinitely lowered cannon accuracy. This major factor was amplified by the strong recoil of the cannons (37mm) during firing. Only the strong recoil of these cannons during firing posed difficulties in waging aimed fire at armored point targets such as tanks, SPG's"

 

So they choosed to mass produce the IL-2s with 23mm cannons up to the end of the war.

 

About Tigers, i doubt most of the losses were due to IL-2s on the Eastern Front. For instance at the Battle of Kursk very few Tigers were lost and these losses had different causes (AT, artillery, mechanical breakdown,etc).

 

In game the IL-2 is best against medium tank and infantry, heavier armor having to be defeated by AT, artillery, tanks & heavy SPGs

Edited July 4, 2009 by Neo

[Le_Poisson 0]

Neo -

 

I should have phrased what I said as "Combat losses" IE: tanks directly knocked out by the enemy. (again, this is from my knowledge, and I could be wrong).

 

And what you said is true about how the IL-2 operates in game currently, but it seems to me like Il-2's could/should be a viable way to knock out heavy armor. You know, it would be awesome if Tiger's and King Tigers just knocked themselves out, as they were prone to do in real life, but since that would make the game suck more, this is one option for Russia to counter them. (this isn't even going into the Allied heavy tanks that the Soviets have to counter).

 

Of course this is a somewhat ahistoric approach, but it is true that IL-2s were good at tanking out enemy armor, even heavy tanks. Maybe not as good as Soviet propaganda would have you believe, but good nonetheless.

 

Another, historical, approach is to provide the IL-2's with bomblet upgrades, which saw more viable use than the rockets.

 

If the Soviet player chooses to move toward the upgraded air option they don't really have a viable tool to knock out the tigers that can be coming their way at that point. It is my belief that moving in any direction on the tech tree should provide some sort of counters for what you're going to be fighting.

 

Again, I might just be using the IL-2s improperly, do they operate any better if you manually control them? I have tried both automatic and manual control and neither seems to work very well :/

Edited July 5, 2009 by Le_Poisson

[Neo 0]

What could be cool in a next patch would be to have the IL-2 3M model (with 37mm cannons) but with a very low accuracy level. Like i wrote before, these cannons were so innacurate that it was simply impossible to hit a simple target. They were used to shoot at multiple parked tanks, artillery and AA installations... ;)

[owenjimmy 0]

They were pretty awesome in previous realeases, even having rockets...

Why reduce effectiveness now?

[Le_Poisson 0]

OwenJimmy -

 

I think the intent was to put them more inline with their historical effectiveness. The rockets (according to a source I read) were not used very heavily, but the bomblets did see very good use. The 23mm cannon version was produced throughout the war and in greater quantities than the other IL-2 versions. This wikipedia article (yes not a hugely reliable source, but this is just a quick internet search find) suggests that the 23mm version lacked power against heavier vehicles:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkov-Yartsev_VYa-23

 

However, I believe that the Soviets should be able to build the IL-2 3M (37mm cannon model), or at least get a bomblet upgrade or option if they're taking the aircraft tech tree route. These models were fielded, and did prove useful in combat (if unstable), and the bomblets were certainly very useful and even more used than the 3M version or rockets. The number of IL-2 3M's can also be curtailed, and price tweaked.

 

It should be pointed out that the Soviets can already build the T-44 (which was available in what, the hundreds?), and the IS-2 and IS-3(!!). I don't think it's a viable argument to say "they didn't have them," this mod already is balancing "fun" and "realism," why compromise here?

 

(I should also note that I mainly started this topic because there seems to be a big discrepancy between the effectiveness of Soviet ground attack planes and that of the Allies (or even the Axis)).

 

[empirecitizen 0]

The allies definitely has the best ground attack planes (understandable, since air domination is what allies were about)

 

 

Axis aren't that much better than soviet actually especially in the ground attack department. Stuka are fine like the pe2 but the axis only has 1 call in of HS129 ground attack plane that takes quite long to recharge. Going up the air tech will give an upgrade that makes them better against heavy tanks but the number of these planes are just too few to actually make a big different. In fact, getting jet planes will remove the stuka and replace them with the new jet bombers that are better but only 2 is allowed. That further reduce the damage done by the air force.

 

So overall, the russia air force aren't that bad compared to axis in the ground attack department against the medium armors

[Le_Poisson 0]

empirecitizen -

 

Just fyi, with the stukas (and presumably the PE2) you can send them near a target then when they get there tell them which target to drop their bombs on, in this way you can hit specific forces. Also, the HS129 does have a long recharge, but I think the damage it doles out is worth it. Idk, I still feel IL-2's are underpowered....

[Korona 0]

The 23mm cannon had a high ROF but it's unlikely that the puny rounds could do much against the thick skin even on the sides or rear of the Tigers.

 

Bomblets aren't going to do much against a Tiger either and the Soviets already have a bomber capable of carrying a much greater payload - the Pe2. Really converting the Il2 to use bombs would remove it's most distinctive weapon and turn it into a slow and under powered light bomber.

 

Neo is correct though, use the Il2s on the enemy medium tanks (especially the Allies since they use Shermans even in the late game) and light assets like artillery. Their heavy armour also makes them great for distracting or destroying light AA clearing the way for the Pe2s. The best way to take out Tigers with the Soviets is to mass produce the long ranged SU-100 with it's massive naval gun.

 

I am tempted to bump up the Hs129 loiter time since they take so long to recharge and the game can't really cope with its weapon type.