Uk Military Thread

[Goose 0]

Fuck that, all you need is one of these:

 

 

That's all very clever, but what if you lose your shovel?

 

[Mehman 0]

Fuck that, all you need is one of these:

 

 

That's all very clever, but what if you lose your shovel?

 

How can you lose it? You're always using it! Even for climbing!

 

Man I need to get one of these shovels so I can put it in a corner and never use it.

[Goose 0]

Fuck.

 

 

Discuss.

[Count von Phoib 0]

the loss of Challenger 2 tanks, AS90 guns and Warrior armoured vehicles.

Wut?

[killakanz 0]

Fuck.

 

 

Discuss.

 

fucking numpties. Why don't we just invite everyone to invade us?

Our forces are well and truly shafted as they are, now there's more cuts coming?

[ironduke57 0]

Fuck.

 

 

Discuss.

 

fucking numpties. Why don't we just invite everyone to invade us?

...

 

Someone called me/us? B)

 

But it is not better here. There a proposels which would cut our forces at half. :(

 

Regards,

ironduke57

[Count von Phoib 0]

Fuck.

 

 

Discuss.

 

fucking numpties. Why don't we just invite everyone to invade us?

...

 

Someone called me/us? B)

 

But it is not better here. There a proposels which would cut our forces at half. :(

 

Regards,

ironduke57

I was actually counting the seconds it took Ironduke to post this. I am still impressed :P

 

And Ironduke, got any link to the German proposal?

[ironduke57 0]

:P

 

Some proposals which are discussed atm:

• - 15 Transall ASAP, reduced A 400 M order

 

• only 80 NH90 instead of 122

 

• only 40 instead of 80 Tigers

 

• - 100 Tornados ASAP

 

• no EF Tranche 3B

 

• -8 Frigates, 10 Speedboats and 21 Sea King ASAP

 

• only 3 Klasse 125 Frigates instead of 4

 

• - 40000 fightíng personal

 

• - 280 Leo2´s and - 280 PUMAs

 

Admit it! You are passing this information to Bastep so the Russian´s know when they can attack without fear of a serious resistance!

 

Regards,

ironduke57

Edited August 7, 2010 by ironduke57

[killakanz 0]

• only 40 instead of 80 Tiger

 

Well, the less Tigers the Germans have the better the Allies feel...

[ironduke57 0]

Here is a more detailed post from BansheeOne of Tanknet:

We will get some semi-hard facts on where the train is headed on the 23rd, when Defense Minister zu Guttenberg will inform parlamentarians about the plans. However, the grapevine already shows a general picture.

 

Five models on future force structure were investigated, from the minimum 150,000-man all-professional to a 205,000-man Bundeswehr cutting the maximum amount of 40,000 contract soldiers while retaining conscription in its current form (about to be reduced to a mere six-month term come January 2011). The first has been judged incapable of fulfilling the obligations of German security policy while the last is considered unaffordable under the impending budget cuts forced by the debt cap recently entered into the constitution. The actual result will be somewhere in between.

 

Zu Guttenberg seems to have settled on a model including at least 156,000 contract soldiers, 7,500 „short-timers“ (in effect conscripts that have agreed to actually serve for a maximum of less than two years like the current „voluntary extended service conscripts“) and a planning margin of 5,000. Total strength will therefore be between 163,500 and 168,500. The draft will be kept on the books, but only those volunteers would actually be inducted. The blue-ribbon commission tasked with developing a streamlined force model has suggested there is a total potential of 15,000-20,000 short-timers to be recruited from society, so higher gross numbers are mentioned too; but for now a Bundeswehr of ca. 165,000 seems the most likely.

 

One focus of the reform is alleged to be trimming the fat at the top, since the number of multi-star commands and MOD bureaucrats has not shrunken much at all while line units kept getting cut. Plans seem to include to scratch one of the two defense state secretary posts and giving the Inspector General of the Bundeswehr more authority, while downgrading the inspectors of the forces (army, air force, navy, central services, medical) out of the ministry. Medical is likely to be integrated with central services.

 

That way, there would be one civilian and one military branch in the MOD. Elevating the IG like that is slightly controversial; though not as much as some years ago when the first small bits of actual command authority bestowed upon the post triggered all sorts of history-based hysteria about possible re-introduction of a Generalstab. Unsurprisingly, the MOD bureaucracy is fighting back right now, too.

 

It is dearly hoped that the multitude of higher commands pushing and shoving to lead scarce forces will be eliminated in the current process. It is already indicated that the divsion level as it is now will be abolished in the army and air force. Instead, there will be a total of four two-star joint forces commands, which will also include the current four current territorial commands of the central services. The distinction into „intervention“ and „stabilisation“ forces, meaningless in reality, will go away.

 

As for equipment, there was a “Priority List On Materiél Investions“ leaked from the MOD last month which contained substantial cuts. The ministry hastened to point out is was only a working paper, and the document itself stressed that all actual decisions where subject to the executive and parliamentary political process. However, it also said it was created before the cabinet order to investigate a cut of up to 40,000 professional soldiers, and depending upon actual reduction in strength there might actually be even more capability cuts. Its most important parts:

 

 

Land systems:

 

- Reduce Leopard 2 to 271, investigate cuts of 2A7 upgrade

 

- Reduce Puma order to 280

 

- Preliminarily keep Boxer APC variant at 125, re-appropriate 26 of the second lot of ambulance variant (i.e. total 151?)

 

- Phase out M113 (noooooooo!!!!)

 

- Reduce Fuchs to „deployment-relevant“ number including temporarily limited alternative to Boxer

 

- „Significantly“ reduce Bergepanzer 2 LS ARV to deployment-relevant number

 

- „Significantly“ reduce Dachs AEV to deployment-relevant number

 

- Reduce Bv 206 D to deployment-relevant number

 

- Reduce PzH 2000 to 80

 

- Reduce MLRS to 24, but upgrade all of them with European Fire Control System for GMLRS

 

- Preliminarily cancel WaBEP loitering combat drone (Israeli Harop)

 

- Keep current order for Wiesel 2 mortar system (74 mortar carriers, 36 FCV)

 

- Reduce airmobile forces permitting loss of capability to simultaneously conduct EvacOps and neutralisation of irregular forces

 

- Cut number of Wiesel 1 in airmobile forces to 37 with 20 mm AC, 18 with TOW (does not extend to other light infantry formations)

 

- No further procurement of Mungo

 

- No procurement of Protected Command and Utility Vehicle Class 4 (Wisent) and Protected Transport Vehicle 9 t except for indispensable functions

 

- Procure unprotected vehicles only COTS anymore

 

- Procure 582 „new rifles“ supplementing G 36 (likely 7.62 mm HK 417 as G 27)

 

- Accelerated procurement of infantry night vision equipment.

 

- Procure four units of MANTIS C-RAM system (Oerlikon Skyshield)

 

- Develop New Generation light air defense missile, but preliminarily forego mobile part of SysFla army air defense system

 

- Phase out Patriot beginning in 2011 already, procure eight units of MEADS; if the latter cannot be realised, investigate integration of SM-3 into Type 124 frigates to take over missile defense mission.

 

 

 

Aircraft:

 

- Cut resp. Pass on for export tranche 3b of Eurofighter (37) for a total of 140; integration of AESA radar necessary

 

- Reduce current number of 44 Phantom II to a squadron equivalent of about 23 by mid-2011, phase out after Eurofighter can fully take over air policing ca. end of 2013

 

- Reduce Tornado from 185 to 85 faster as planned (previously 2017), keep up Nuclear Participation in NATO

 

- Investigate possible reduction of A400M order (numbers of ca. 45-50 instead of 60 thrown around)

 

- Immediately reduce number of Transalls by 15 plus X, X being the reduction in A400Ms

 

- Reduce total order of 122 NH 90 helicopters for army and air force to 80; create „synergies“ by putting rotary wing assets under joint operational control on the UK model

 

- No procurement of MH 90 navy variant for now, instead upgrade Sea King fleet to fly until 2025

 

- Reduce Tiger attack helicopter order from 80 to 40

 

- Significantly reduce BO 105 and UH-1D to minimum number required to train and keep on flight status future NH 90 and Tiger crews

 

- Forego planned CSAR capability for less demanding „Extended Personnel Recovery“ based upon existing CH-53

 

- Significantly reduce number of ready-to-use Taurus cruise missiles, investigate ways to quickly re-activate inactivated missiles for use

 

- Delay integration of Taurus with Eurofighter, investigate use of other carrier platforms including A400M

 

- Reduce Meteor AAM order commencing in 2011 from 603 to 150

 

- Reduce GBU-48 order for Eurofighter from 704 to 175

 

- Transfer anti-ship role from Tornado to Orion MPA including re-winging of the latter; will have to use LGB when Kormoran 2 AShM reaches end of certification in 2012

 

- Phase out wet-film recce pods for Tornado, limit procurement of digital Recce Lite pod to currently planned number of eight

 

- Cancel development of EADS Talarion MALE AGV; immediately procure system based upon Heron 1 currently leased from Israel (might be Heron TP/Eitan), but reduce planned number from 22 to 16 systems

 

- Procure total of five EuroHawk SIGINT UAVs, permitting 15 month gap after phase-out of Breguet Atlantic; will eventually also take over role of the navy's three ELINT vessels, not to be replaced

 

- Reduce participation in NATO AGS Core from six to four Global Hawk systems

 

- Procure initial equipment of army and navy with VTOL UAV (likely Schiebel S-100 Camcopter)

 

- Develop successor system to current SAR Lupe radar recon satellite system with reduced capabilities vis-a-vis original plans; secure access to optical sat imagery by financial contribution to French CSO system.

 

 

Ships:

 

- Possibly replace the eight Type 122 frigates by only three instead of four F 125 (newer reports indicate this is off the table)

 

- Decommission last six Type 206A submarines (already taken out of readiness), re-assign crews for rotation on Type 212As; procurement of fifth and six U 212A looks safe

 

- Decommission last ten Type 143A fast-attack craft as soon as possible, re-assign crews to rotation/new crews of incoming corvettes

 

- Procure six if possible OTS corvettes (MEKO 100 is likely) beginning in 2015 at the latest

 

- Decommission all five Type 352 minehunting drone control vessels and eight Seehund drones when Type 130 corvette reaches operational readiness, re-assign crews for rotation on MJ 332s and 333s; equip MJ 332 for control of remaining ten Seehunde

 

- Decomission two Type 332 patrol boats of Navy Protection Forces, rebuild other two as diver deployment boats to replace old Langeoog

 

- Delay procurement of Joint Support Ship for amphibious operations (again)

 

- Third Type 702 AOR not mentioned and seems safe; lately even mention of two new fleet tankers to replace old single-hull vessels which are no longer allowed to come into many international ports.

 

 

The overall picture that emerges will likely resemble the following:

 

 

The Heer wants six identically-structured, infantry-strong brigades which can deal with the whole spectrum of operations (but are based upon the current Stabilisation Brigades) and rotate through deployments. The plan is to raise six new infantry battalions, though this might turn out to be partly a shell game. In addition, they want to keep the current capabilities for Special and EvacOps, combat against irregular forces and the German participation in the French-German Brigade.

 

Those six brigades will probably look big and diverse, having one each of a

 

- Panzer battalion (total of six as before, but maybe companies reduced back to 13 instead of 14 tanks considering the need for training and technical reserve?)

 

- Panzergrenadier battalion (down from eight)

 

- Jäger battalion

 

- RSTA battalion

 

- Pionier battalion

 

- Signal battalion

 

- Logistics battalion

 

but no organic artillery. As the remaining PzH 2000 and MLRS only allow for eight or nine batteries overall, most (excluding the mixed battalion of the French-German Brigade?) will probably migrate to the Army Troops Brigade to join NBC. There are also rumors that the army is getting out of air defense completely and MANTIS will be pushed over to the air force; I was surprised the priority list stuck to SysFla LFK NG. OTOH, formations will apparently have organic medical units again, since deployments have highlighted the need for joint training.

 

One of the current two airborne brigades is likely to be re-roled into the above, the other will probably merge with 1st Airmobile Brigade on the model of the British 16 Air Assault Brigade with rotary wing assets supplied by a „Joint Helicopter Command“; but at least it will have three instead of two line battalions, going by the Wiesel numbers from the priority list. The KSK is reported to come under direct control of Special Operations Command along with the navy's Kampfschwimmer.

 

The Mountain Brigade will probably stay due to its specialisation on fighting in restricted terrain. The French-German Brigade is already getting an additional mixed Jäger/Recon battalion, to be permanently based near Strasbourg in France for the first time. This would make for a total of 14 light infantry battalions, up from nine (counting Jägerregiment 1 as the re-inforced battalion it really is) – two of which would be converted from Panzergrenadiers. Not quite the six new battalions planned. Also, the priority list is curiously silent of the Wiesels that would be needed for their Heavy Companies.

 

 

The Luftwaffe appears to be the hardest hit of the traditional forces by personnel reductions, probably owing to the reality of current missions. 140 Eurofighters will equip a total of three wings (minus one), one of which will be JaboG 31; there are however demands that all EF wings should eventually be dual role AtA/AtG. JaboG 32 runs the 35 HARM-equipped ECR Tornados along with some IDS and will probably stay.

 

I'm not so sure about JaboG 33 which has the Nuclear Participation role. This is not a popular issue and only lukewarmly defended by a few Atlanticists in the Conservatives, and even fewer in the Social Democrats. The current official line seems to amount to „eventually Tornado will be replaced by Eurofighter which is not certified for nuclear weapons, and then we're shot of this troublesome stuff anyway“. I foresee this being high on the list when the search for additional possibilities to save a buck starts, German influence in NATO's nuclear planning be damned.

 

Another likely candidate is MEADS. Raytheon has been making the rounds through MP offices advertising an upgrade of Patriot to 90 percent of MEADS' capabilities, for far less money and with the same German industrial partners. Needless to say, they encountered great sympathy. It was another surprise for me the MOD considers missile defense so important they think of SM-3 integration into F 124 as a backup plan.

 

AG 51 is set to become a pure UAV unit if they lose the anti-shipping role; the priority list doesn't say the mere eight remaining recce pods have to be carried by Recce Tornados.

 

 

The Marine comes off best in comparison, either by being the smallest force already with not much personnel to cut anymore, or owing to the realisation that an export-oriented economy like Germany's is dependant on free SLOCs. It's questionable whether 10-11 frigates and 11 corvettes will justify keeping two squadrons each; the remaining minehunters will rather surely be concentrated in one squadron. The navy still hopes to get back up to eight submarines, but I don't think this very likely in the mid-term. An amphibious capability, ghosting around in varios guises since the early 90s, will probably never materialise. At least the reduction in hulls will allow to dispense with the grossly overaged supply units.

 

OTOH the acquistion of new navy helicopters is now officially so FUBARed they have to keep the tired old Sea Kings flying unto 2025. Eurocopter dropped the ball on the MH 90 even more resoundingly than on the NH variant, and the S-92 apparently doesn't look too attractive due to the CH-148's own problems with its introduction in Canada. At least we're not following the Dutch model and get rid of the Orion MPA fleet we took over from them – even if it appears they'll have to take over ant-shipping with LGBs for lack of usable AShMs.

 

Again, all this subject to actual executive and parliamentary decisions in the next months. For one thing the Conservatives, being the last party adhering to general consription, have trouble with the "voluntary draftees" thing that is basically a Social Democratic concept they ridiculed only two years ago.

 

Regards,

ironduke57

[Count von Phoib 0]

Maybe it's time to start thinking about a unified European Army.

 

For example, integrating German and Dutch armed forces:

Dutch armed forces would cut all armor, self propelled artillery, handing the tasks to the Germans.

Germans would cut all airmobile operations, handing the tasks to the Dutch, including assault helicopters.

Dutch would drop all air-to-ground, reconnaissance missions, and low level air defense, handing those tasks to the Germans.

Germans would drop air superiority and medium to high level air defense, handing those tasks to the Dutch.

 

It's just an example, but it would create a stronger armed force for both countries, and not cost as much as the current plans to keep "a little bit of everything" army.

[Goose 0]

In other army news, I passed selection yesterday and now have a job offer as a dog handler, woop.

[Korona 0]

Congrats

 

@ Phoib, that wouldn't work without political unity as well. What happens when one country wants intervention and the other doesn't?

Personally I'd like a centralised European state but the best we could do atm would be to unify the procurement and get economies of scale.

[ironduke57 0]

...

Personally I'd like a centralised European state ...

 

BTDTAIGWTLS B)

 

SCNR,

ironduke57

Edited August 19, 2010 by ironduke57

[killakanz 0]

Gesundheit

[ironduke57 0]

:P

BTDTAIGWTLS = BTDT All I got was this lousy shirt. ;)

 

Regards,

ironduke57

[ironduke57 0]

British Armed Forces to be replaced by the A-Team

 

:P :lol:

[Andre27 0]

British Armed Forces to be replaced by the A-Team

 

:P :lol:

 

Would be cost effective...

[ironduke57 0]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/8072041/Navy-aircraft-carrier-will-be-sold-after-three-years-and-never-carry-jets.html

 

Regards,

ironduke57

[Goose 0]

This is ridiculous. I'm genuinely fucking embarassed about this. Pitiful.

[killakanz 0]

This is ridiculous. I'm genuinely fucking embarassed about this. Pitiful.

 

Aren't we all. This situation really is shameful.

[killakanz 0]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11570593

 

Farewell HMS Ark Royal. You'll be missed.

 

Thing is they're basing the decision over a 30-40 year timespan. World War 2 happened in 6 years.

[Goose 0]

Hm, well the announcement has been made in parliament, and if anyone can be bothered the full review is published here. I may trawl through it myself later. Either way its going to be very grim all round for a good decade or so at least. Although in theory at that stage we'll be at a better position to build the forces up effectively (so say the politicians), afterall, when you're at rock bottom the only way is up. In a weeks time I have the final stage in my army selection to be a dog handler, on the off chance I do actually get in, god knows how long I'll be waiting before I start training. I met a guy recently who has been accepted for a place in the RAF, but has been told he won't be starting training for two years! I don't know why people fucking bother anymore, at least when the Taliban offer their lives in the name of a cause or country they actually get to see active service.

 

 

Edit:

I've been bored at work today, and with all this talk of military cost saving measures I read an old telegraph article about potentially merging the three services. So I had a go on photoshop and knocked up a quick concept of what a uniform for such an organisation might look like. Link. On the left is a Parachute Regiment Staff Sergeant's formal uniform, and on the right is a Royal Air Corps Commander's uniform (yeah I was really bored so I combined the ranks and renamed the RAF too, don't judge me :P).

Edited October 19, 2010 by Goose