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philcha
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I've also had Jackals and Enforcers stuck at sharp corners at the top / bottom of a ramp. IIRC I've also had it with Reapers. Might be a problem with AR2's use of the hover locomotor. Or it might be AR2's hard luck to have triggered a bug in the basic YR2 code - I've had similar problems with non-hover units (Nexus miner, which is like a scaled-up Terror Drone) in the Robot Storm mod.
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While you're updating the mod, can you script it so that newly-built Gen Reapers and Nem harvesters automatically move a small distance away from the factory gate? I've found that if they move about their own length they will then automatically harvest the nearest vinifera patch. I first noticed that in enemy Genesis bases Reapers automatically go and harvest when kicked in the rear by another vehicle emrging from the same factory. Other players have probably also found this and set a rally point, but the AI doesn't do this and usually has a few idle "miners".
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Perhaps, but it makes Genesis' strategy monotonous - a simple race to get a decent airforce (on large, fairly rich maps; on small or poor maps Enforcers loaded with Shiners are the backbone of Genesis). OK, the air build-up is time-consuming and requires careful defence, but after that it's like shooting fish in a barrel, at least against the AI (if I played Nemesis I'd built about 20 extra Quads as soon as I saw more than 6 Genesis planes built). So for balance and variety: Nemesis needs good but expensive air defence. Expensive so Nemesis has to choose between this and and a tank rush. Genesis's cost penalty for having a Venagenium needs to be removed or minimal. At present it's not economically viable to build ground vehicles other than Leviathan after placing a Venagenium. That means Genesis would have to build all ground units except Leviathan before placing a Venagenium, and replacing losses would still be expensive. It also means Genesis has to commit itself strategically to a greater extent than Nemesis does - (1) ground attack led by Orchids if no Venagenium built; (2) ground attack led by Leviathan and supported by previously built Orchids if Venagenium built and not scrapped; (3) air attack if Airbase built and Venagenium scrapped. (1) should fail against a layered Nemesis defence with Apocs in front and Catastrophes behind. (2) is not reliable as Nemesis air defence units can shoot down Leviathan's shells while Apocs supported by Catastrophes counter-attack; (3) is slow to build but pretty reliable, especially as it only takes a few aircraft to demolish a tank rush while Genesis is building a large enough airforce to attack (and Ravens are fast enough to switch quickly between raiding, defence and all-out attack).
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I haven't found Apocalypse tanks such a worry, playing against the AI. Genesis Enforcers loaded with Shiners do a good job on Apocs provided you meet them more than halfway from your base - both the Enforcers and the Shiners deployed inside them out-range Apocs, so you hit and run against them (of course a slug-out is suicide). I've done this on maps which are too poor to fund more high-tech approaches or too small to allow the time for high tech. I find Catastrophes more of a problem - they have lower firepower but excellent range. Fortunately for me on small / poor maps the AI builds Apocs and rushes with them without long-range support from Catastrophes or even Quads (it's usually wasted its Quads in a premature rush earlier). IMO the biggest problems in 5.0 (apart from Internal Errors) are: * Armageddon is too powerful. * The 100% cost penalty for Genesis' factory units if a Venagenium is present. So I scrap the Venagenium as soon my Airbase is built and then I go for a big fleet of Ravens (which slaughter tank groups and only have trouble against massed Quads, since the Sentinel AA units are so slow the Ravens just go round and hit Nemesis from the other side).
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Frozen Plateau and Inebriation are prone to internal errors: [*]in Frozen Plateau it's the Raven atacking over high feature error [*]in Inebriation if the player in the SW corner builds a superweapon next to the cliffs and I destroy it ... Shame, because otherwise I like these 2 maps.
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Genesis Ground vehicle under attack: reading heavy damage contamination level critical Nemesis Apocalypse tank: on being built: the Apocalypse is at hand on being given order to move: reactor in the field Quad: on being built: where's the combat? on being given order to move: I want action Miner: on being built: where's the vinifera? on being given order to harvest: that patch looks green
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If there's a new version of the manual can you please post a link to it. I can't find "downloads" page anywhere.
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I don't have the technical or graphics skills for developing mods, but I can help with beta testing and documentation.
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I started another thread on this - it turned out to be quite a debate. Summary of my thoughts: Fixing all know internal errors must be the top priority. Drop the cost penalty for Genesis units while G has a Venagenium. It only encourages players to sell the Venagenium after building an airbase, then it's a race to build aircraft. Or encourage players to keep the Venagenium by upgrading the Leviathan - longer range, much harder to shoot down its projectiles, etc. Make Genesis Reapers more efficient - faster and / or give them a small bonus in terms of $ per unit of vinifera harvested. Improve Enforcers' visual range (see yet another thread). Make Orchid a hover unit. It's odd that Leviathan hovers but Orchid doesn't. Provide a decent counter to Armageddon. The best I've seen is that someone filled an Enforcer with Cutilators and ran it round Armageddon without making the Enforcer itself shoot at Armageddon. I got the impression from the post that having the Cutilators on board cloaked the Enforcer. This all sounds like exploiting a bug and therefore rather cheesy. And it could be negated by attacking in another area with other forces, so the defender takes his eye off the Enforcer. Give Nemesis some late and expensive but fairly powerful air defence, so Nemesis can't simply be crushed by a swarm of aircraft. Give Nemesis some air combat capability. Improve Genesis Decimators or make them much cheaper. At present Nemesis conscripts can clear them at a fraction of the cost. Stop Genesis AI from building far too many Aurabelts. Stop Genesis AI from cheating on prerequisites. It routinely sends about 5 Gryphons to my base without having built Airbase or Venagenium or Vision. I don't mind the poor AI getting some help, but I'd prefer it to be in the form of $ so it can build faster. That way the human player can see the Airbase go up and then start building air defence structures and units. Further in the future, any ideas for new playable races? For example what about one whose speciality is fast, cheap, permanently cloaked but fragile units which can only be detected by fairly fragile units with no offensive ability? That would give us a race of sneaky raiders in addition to the hi-tech Genesis and brute-force Nemesis. Yes, I admit I got the idea from Starcraft (AR2 has Cutilators, but they're tough and slow, and there's 1 similar unit in the Robot Storm for YR - Cutilators and the Robot Storm unit both uncloak to attack). Or, on a similiar theme, a race whose combat units can't cloak themselves but they can be cloaked by a non-combat unit (like the Protoss Arbiter in Starcraft - the Arbiter does have a weapon but it's fairly weak). Or what about a race of chrono-shifters like the Allies' chrono units in YR ? Make the phase-in time proportional to the distance travelled. This would be another raiding race. Or a race with units which are not very tough but are fast and self-heal very quickly, like the Zerg in Starcraft? Or a race with only infantry (no planes, vehicles, ships or defensive structures), but they're all tough and many have anti-air capability. For maps with sea or barriers they'd need a transport unit, preferably one with gun-ports the infantry can shoot from - or make all the infantry good swimmers and climbers. To make this one work it might be necessary to improve the cost-effectiveness of having multiple Barracks. This race would be like Nemesis' huge grinding land armies only more so.
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Sorry for coming in late on this. I'd prefer no auto-repair: Repairing while under attack may be a waste of money. When the attack's over you may want to do something else first, e.g. strengthen your economy. The best argument for auto-repair is that a sharp player might exploit it to undermine an economy by hitting several buildings so they're all drainng cash by auto-repairing at the same time - or is that cheesy?
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The Manual says vehicles are short-sighted but their visual range is extended if they carry infantry, and some fairly recent posts in this forum support this idea. But the actual game does not implement this and gives a significant early-game advantage to Nemesis: Empty Quads have about the same visual range as Jackals, and carrying infantry does not extend their range. Empty Enforcers have zero visual range - they sometimes vanish when you drive them into the Shroud. Carrying infantry does not extend Enforcers' visual range at all. Consequences: Genesis's reconnaisance is crippled if it gets only Enforcers at the start - this happens maybe 1 game in 20. If Genesis gets 1 or more Jackals, they have to spent the first few minutes exploring their base. If they go on longer-range reconnaisace first, there's a risk that a Quad rush will be very hard to defend against because the Enforcers have to drive right up to the Quads to see them before they can attack the Quads - and of course how do you know where to drive? This is serious because in the early stages Genesis relies a lot on anticipating rushes. For example Quads are faster than Enforcers, so if Genesis doesn't see them coming the Quads run past the Enforcers and do some serious damage.
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I got persistent internal errors as Genesis while destroying a Vinifera Missile in the SW corner of map "Attrigo: Inebriation". The silo was very close to the cliff on the NW edge of the Nemesis base. I got the internal error during the attack on the silo, apparently when it was about to explode (almost 0 health), both when I attacked with a group of Ravens and when I attacked it with a Bomber Raid. When attacking with Ravens I cleared the rest of the base and approached the silo over flat ground. So I think this is not the "Raven attacking over high feature" bug but a separate one, possibly related to large explosions in confined spaces. Please email me a.s.a.p. if you want me to email you a saved copy of the game just before this attack.
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I found and lost and re-found this comment from CNC guild's review of AR2: So at present (AR2 version 5) Genesis should ignore superweapons (the Bomber Raid is useless unless you've already crushed the enemy's air-defence) and just build lots of cheap aircraft - Ravens $1500 each, Gryphons $1200 each; as I said above, I think Ravens' greater speed and weapon range justify the extra cost. AR2 is great fun but this indicates that the balance needs to be adjusted: the Venegenium cost penalty reduces the variety and entertainment value of AR2, because it gives Genesis players a strong incentive to sell the Venagenium and forgo the option of ground assaults - the Leviathan unit is essential for ground assaults because no feasible quantity of Genesis close combat units can invade a Nemesis base. if Genesis survives long enough to build 6 Ravens, it's all over. With 6 Reapers harvesting and 2 Factories building cheap Ravens, I soon have a bank balance over $10K, so I can even afford to re-build my base provided my Con Yard survives. there's little risk of a really dangerous ground attack on my base because I spend some of the money on Solenoids, supported by extra Aurabelts where necessary. These plus "spare" Ravens in my base plus Enforcers loaded with Shiners stop ground assaults and half the Shiners come from selling the Venagenium! with 4 Ravens flying and more being built I can easily keep Vinifera Missiles offline until my airforce is big enough to blast its way through. I usually only build 15 Ravens in total - 10 to do the job and 5 to cover my base / replace losses. conclusion: on fairly large, moderately rich maps Nemesis stands no chance. I've crushed 2 Nemesis AIs several times on such maps - the only risk is if they accidentally attack at exactly the same time. I am about to experiment with 3 Nemesis AIs. I suggest: scrap the cost penalty for Factory units if a Venagenium is present. give Nemesis some powerful but late and expensive air defence. make the Aureole a lot more expensive. BTW, if you play a mixture of Genesis and Nemesis opponents, cripple the Genesis opponents first to avoid worries about air-strikes - if just 1 enemy Gryphon survives long enough, you're history. Genesis needs better air defence as much as Nemesis does - Enforcers are slower than Quads and have shorter range.
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First, does Nox or anyone elsehave another link to an editor which can create huge AR2 maps? I downloaded twice from http://www.wagnerma.de/downloads.php and both times when I ran it I got a message in German(!) which I think said the file was corrupt. Godwin , thanks for the detailed reply. I'm afraid I have some follow-up queries and comments :) Do you mean Aurabelts are just base extenders like Starcraft's Creep Colonies, and have nothing to do with power supply or defence? I don't think carrying infantry extends the sight range of vehicles - I'm sure Enforcers carrying Shiners are as short-sighted as when empty, see what I wrote about my attempt at a rush with Enforcers carrying Shiners. Thanks for clarifying the point that Shiners are Genesis' only anti-air infantry. When you said "basic Shiner" did you mean they can't hit aircraft when deployed / garrisoned, or simply that Shiners are Genesis' basic grunt? Your other comment about seeing the Shiners' beams suggests that they are deployed / garrisoned inside an Enforcer, as the beams are visible in this situation. But they do not have the range or fire-power of Shiners garrisoned in a bunker - in map "Atrigo: Blanc" I put 6 in a bunker, a "neutral" Solenoid fired on the bunker and the Shiners killed it with one volley at far greater range than they have in an Enforcer or deployed on open ground. Looks like there are 2 levels of deployed / garrisoned. :unsure: I'm not sure about hover units against Hailstorms. If the Hailstroms have kamikaze swimmers as a vaguard to clear out Decimators, this will also reveal to Nemesis' radar any hovercraft (most likely Enforcers) heading to attack them. Then I suspect Hailstorm's greater range, firepower and accuracy will make it a massacre, like Armageddon versus Orchids - Hailstorms hit moving aircraft while Enforcers have real difficulty killing infantry, who are much slower, and Jackals will die very quickly. OK, enough Enforcers will kill a Hailstorm, with heavy losses. And maybe enough Orchids / Enforcers will kill an Armageddon (Enforcers may do better as they have more chance of concentrating their fire simultaneously). But the economics are terrible: a Hailstorm costs $1800 and probably needs at least 6 Enforcers which cost a total of $5400 and I'd expect 4 or 5 to die, so $1880 worth of Hailstorm kills at least $3600 worth of Enforcers and my Factory tied up making Enforcers when I need Ravens to stop the V Missile. The manual doesn't state the cost of an Armageddon. But I've seen one kill 6 Orchids which cost a total of $7200 (or $14400 if there really is a 100% cost penalty for units made after a Venagenium is built). And again it's distracting Factories from making Ravens to stop the V Missile. Before anyone asks "Why Ravens rather than a ground attack to stop the V Missile?": Even the AI usually builds Nemesis' Radar at the front of the base and so hides everything at the front of the base. That means that visible Incinerators are at the back. A Leviathan might well be able to hit them, but it's too easy for Nemesis to intercept a Leviathan. So a Leviathan needs a large escort and the total cost and build time are probably as high as for the 4 Ravens which do the job for me by killing 1 or 2 Incinerators. Also the manual says anti-aircraft units can shoot down Leviathan shells, so Genesis would probably need to send 3 Leviathans ($9600). Suppose we send 8 Orchids ($7200) to guard them, that's a total of $16800, at least half of which will be killed ($8400 killed) Ravens move much faster than ground units, they can usually find a safe route to at least 1 Incinerator, and get out fast after doing the job. An Airbase and 4 Ravens cost a total of $5000 + 4 x $3000 = $17000 and all the Ravens usually survive. Even if I lose a Raven, that's only $3000 and the replacement is already flying towards the Nemesis base. Then, as I said before, at 8 Ravens I start hunting Miners as well as Incinerators and the game's won, it just takes another 5 minutes to finish it - 2 Factories build a Raven in about 1 minute, 10+ Ravens will certainly destroy a Nemesis base even if guarded by an Armageddon. Remember, by this time I've destroyed most Incinerators and all Miners, so Nemesis can seldom strengthen its air defence faster than I can build Ravens. "Why not Gryphons, which are 20% cheaper than Ravens?" Gryphons are much slower and have shorter range, so they give Nemesis more time to move air-defence units to attack them (mainly Quads, but a good human Nemesis player will also order every available Miner to attack the planes). So Gryphons will have much higher losses and may not even succeed in their mission to force the V Missile Silo offline. I think 4 Ravens are better for this job than 6 Gryphons, so their superiority more than justifies the extra cost. I don't think my suggesting enhancements for both sides means the game is perfectly balanced - I think: Genesis needs early-game enhancements on certain types of map and has little chance against Nemesis on these maps without enhancements. Nemesis needs late-game enhancements in situations where it hasn't seriously hurt Genesis in the early stages, because at present if a one-against-one game goes over 20 minutes Genesis almost always wins without the need for any tactical cleverness or new strategies - just more Ravens.
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Update on my last post's idea about Genesis rushing Nemesis with Enforcers loaded with Shiners. I tried this on "Atrigo: Run Around", where Genesis should get at least 4 of the 5 cash crates, and it was an expensive failure: I used 3 Enforcer+Shiner combos plus 2 Jackals - my starting force plus 2 Shiners from the Genesium. A Nemesis Turret killed my Jackals before they got a good look at it, so it also kiled at least 1 Enforcer before they could see it and shoot it. Meanwhile Nemesis produced Quads and infantry faster than I could move reinforcements in. It appears that Nemesis gets a Factory before Genesis does. I think early rushing would be suicide for Genesis on other maps where it doesn't get a big cash bonus. I got the impression that Shiners in Enforcers do not have the power and range of deployed / garrisoned Shiners. Could the developers please clarify this :unsure: So I still think the best Genesis strategy on maps with good resources and either choke points or long distance between bases is: build up economy first - typically 3 Clarifiums and 6 Reapers. use Jackals for scouting and sniping at infantry, but make sure they keep out of trouble. use Enforcers and deployed Shiners to stop Quad rushes. Add 1 or 2 Solenoids to stop small groups of tanks. build airforce as fast as possible. I prefer Ravens - they're 25% more expensive than Gryphons but look twice as fast. Raven's speed enables them to do hit-and-run raids - at 4 Ravens I hit Incinerators to keep V Missile Silo offline, at 8 Ravens I hunt Miners as well as Incinerators, at 10+ Ravens I go for the kill - and they can still get back fast enough to intercept tank rushes. The slower Gryphons are less versatile and would take heavier losses, and Genesis can seldom afford a war of attrition against Nemesis. the Aureole for Solar Laser superweapon is fun but seldom necessary - I can usually build 20 Ravens and massacre Nemesis before the Super Laser is ready, even if Nemesis has an Armageddon and a bunch of Quads defending. The only time the Super Laser is needed is if the opposition puts all its resources into air defence. Unfortunately this is long and boring either way because of the time needed to build Ravens or activate the Super Laser. I still think Genesis needs the following for small maps, resource-poor maps and maps where Hailstorms can attack the Genesis base: a stronger economy. Making Reapers move faster and unload faster is in the spirit of the game. a not-too-expensive way to stop an "early" Armageddon-led rush - Orchids just die against Armageddons, Gryphons have poor speed and range so they die too, it takes a long time to build the 8 or so Ravens you need to kill an Armageddon without losing almost all of them. a better sea defence than Decimators - these cost $800 and can be cleared by Nemesis kamikaze swimming Conscripts which cost $125. If submarines are not a good idea (my last post) because Genesis can't afford to build a Shipyard / Sub Pen early, perhaps Decimators should be replaced by floating Solenoids. Then Nemesis needs better air defence in the late game when Genesis has 10+ Ravens in the air, but not one which prevents Ravens from delaying the V Missile launch. Some ideas: flak weapons as in RA2 / YR. Should not be as powerful as in Total Annihilation because in TA they lead to stalemates and long boring "superweapon" duels (LRPCs and nukes, if you know TA). Flak weapons should be expensive and have many expensive prerequisites, and static version should be power-hungry. air-defence aircraft with no ground attack ability. Should be slower and weaker than Ravens, so they can't chase Ravens off the battlefield but just hold them up until anti-air ground units get there. I prefer anti-air defence fighters over flak in case we ever get huge AR2 maps - see below. This would make the late game more interesting becuase Genesis would have to use mixed forces for the kill - Leviathans for base-busting, Ravens to protect Leviathans from tanks, Enforcers+Shiners to protect Ravens from fighters / mobile flak. If we ever get huge maps: The V Missile launch needs to be slower, at least the first time: So Genesis aircraft have a decent chance to delay it by raiding Incinerators. So a Nemesis opponent has a change to counter-attack over land and / or build a back-up base. Anti-air enhancements for Nemesis must be slower and more expensive to build, so that Ravens don't get slaughtered when they get there - otherwise the V Missile pounds Genesis into contaminated dust. This is a good argument for Nemesis to have air-defence fighters rather than flak weapons, I think. Perhaps the Genesis Super Laser should be slower / less effective, otherwise it incinerates Nemesis piece by tedious piece, as it takes too long for Nemesis ground forces to reach the Genesis base. I'm not sure about this, as the Nemesis economy is strong enough to build an MCV early and create a back-up base. But then can the Nemesis and Genesis AIs be made smart enough to do this when they get the "super Laser detected" message?:unsure: Nemesis needs another superweapon, to force Genesis to attack seriously rather than just hunt Incinerators and wait for the Super Laser. We may not need any other changes. The game would focus on economic and positional strategy. Both sides would build secondary bases to grab resources and control / create choke-points. Genesis would rely on quick raids and Nemesis on large gound forces to further their own objectives and hinder the opposition. Is there a map editor which can create huge AR2 maps so that gamers can experiment with them before the features of the next AR2 version are decided? :unsure: And we still need big improvements to the AI's performance: Both sides must claim crates when buildings are destroyed. Nemesis should build an MCV on very large maps when it gets a "Super Laser detected" warning. Genesis must keep its Reapers busy and avoid traffic jams at Clarifiums, and should probably build an MCV if it gets a superweapon warning on a very large map - especially if Nemesis gets a 2nd superweapon. when playing as Genesis! BTW is there an easy way to modify the Genesis units' responses and voices? I find them unattractively robotic, and would prefer the heroic but occasionally pompous style of the Protoss in Starcraft - especially if repeated clicks on the same unit produced the occasional zany humour (try repeated clicks on Protoss Archon and Arbiter - or the very gung-ho Carrier commanders). Why should Nemesis have all the best lines? :wacko: